Sigh, there are many things for me to avoid with these posts. Yes, I also don’t want these posts to become narcissistic. Indeed I would hate that, and a narcissistic rant would be useless. But at the same time, there are some things that I seem to be doing very well (through no innate strengths of my own), and my goal here is to share those things with other people so that they can do them too.
For whatever my own assertion is worth, I really am just a guy, will always be, and will also continue to defend this fact. Right now I seem to have some unique insights and techniques, but that’s going to change and then I’ll just be one among many people. A bunch of really fantastic people, but one among many nonetheless (and it will be awesome).
A playful metaphor I’ve been using here is that of a foot soldier who happened to come across a +5 sword of good while wandering through the mountains. I seem able to do some pretty cool stuff, but it would be a mistake to attribute that to anything inherent about me. And most importantly, we can make more of these swords. That’s what I’m trying to do.
As for the personal examples, my own life is one I happen to have a lot of data on.
… I seem to have some unique insights and techniques[.]
You haven’t described anything unique or insightful. You just describe an effect of introspection, and of putting oneself in another’s shoes. I’m pretty sure the majority of LW’s population does these two things all the time.
Unfortunately I wasn’t very clear there—I was referring to the general ideas I’m using, the content of previous and future posts, rather than the particular topic of this post.
Since you don’t want to sound narcissistic, consider counting the number of times you use “I” “my” and “me” before posting. Also avoid the temptation to share your whole mental process and focus on conclusions and supporting evidence that moves beyond personal anecdote. Don’t defend yourself, defend your ideas.
The avoidance of ‘I’, ‘my’ and ‘me’ is good advice, and something I’ve kept an eye out for. In this post it looks like they mostly show up when actually describing personal anecdotes, so the way to cut down on them would be to remove or reduce the anecdotes.
As for sharing the mental process, that information exists as an instruction and guide to doing this kind of thing—it’s actually fairly central to the point of the post.
Regarding the defense of ideas rather than one’s personality, it might be nice if we existed in an idealized setting in which ideas were considered on a level completely separate from the speaker. But it’s not just ideas that we’re judging, and the speaker’s personality is relative information. For example, look at your first comment, regarding the narcissistic feel to the posts. What does it matter if I were narcissistic? I could be the biggest asshole on earth and still be right. But it is relevant—we don’t want some asshole running around and putting himself above everyone else.
The point is that your personal thoughts and experiences leading up to the useful ideas actually detract from your presentation of the ideas. If we think this in terms of signal-to-noise ratio, your idea is signal and your personal experience is noise.
For example, appeals courts spend the minimum time possible on the facts before setting out and applying the law. Facts required to give context to the legal discussion are the only facts mentioned.
In short, consider what you would write if you were totally prohibited from mentioning your personal experiences at all. Sticking as close to that as possible will improve your presentation.
The point is that your personal thoughts and experiences leading up to the useful ideas actually detract from your presentation of the ideas.
Yes, I agree that can happen. But, per the the topic of this post, there are cases where personal thoughts and experiences are very relevant, namely when the topic under discussion is personal thought and experience. If one is attempting to get inside the head of another, information about the content of that head is quite topical. We would lose something if were to model every form of human expression off of the appeals courts.
I appreciate personal anecdote. Sometimes I think anecdotes are the most valuable parts of an essay. It all depends on the style and the preferences of the audience. I don’t criticize HPMOR on the grounds that it focuses too much on Harry and not enough on rationality concepts...
I have asked him to “move beyond” not “eliminate”. Personal anecdote obviously has its place; but it doesn’t dominate on lesswrong, nor should it. As for HPMOR: different form, different purpose. (Though I do occasionally yearn for a bit more conceptualizing there too, - but that’s just personal preference and not grounds for criticism) Frank genuinely seems to want—and need—to improve his posts: my comments are blunt but not unfair.
So to summarize your comment: You use personal examples because you have a lot of data on yourself, and you think you are an excellent example because you seem to be performing very well in some areas.
What are those areas? The examples in this post seem unrelated to any particular strengths of yours.
...you think you are an excellent example because you seem to be performing very well in some areas.
In this post I just used personal examples because I had them, and also because I’ve probably done this somewhat more than average.
The good performance I’m seeing is my larger reason for posting at all. This post is meant both to point out a generally useful phenomenon and to prepare for other material. The other material contains the primary causes of the benefits I’m seeing.
As for what those benefits are, they’re listed in more detail here.
Why do you think you need to prepare your readers for other material? What are you preparing them for? (Or are you preparing yourself?)
Also, could you give me a shorter summary of those benefits? The material you linked me to had four paragraphs of talking about how you interact with other people in a very general way before even attempting your point.
One of the most helpful tools I can think of for the upcoming strategy is to put one’s self into other people’s minds and experiences, and the posts on that strategy are partly built for doing that. I wanted to explain to people why that extra material is there (and that it’s not just a case of needless and unreflected-upon over-elaboration), and also to give an idea of how that material might best be used.
The material you linked me to had four paragraphs of talking about how you interact with other people in a very general way before even attempting your point.
Those paragraphs primarily exist to give a sense of my personality and a suggestion for the best way to consider the benefits. It might be nice if we considered ideas separate from their speaker, but it’s often very relevant information. This comment talks more about this.
For a shorter summary of the benefits, you could check out this post, 4th paragraph, beginning with “If you haven’t read the first two posts”.
I’m afraid this is all starting to seem pretty narcissistic. Less autobiography, more signal please.
Sigh, there are many things for me to avoid with these posts. Yes, I also don’t want these posts to become narcissistic. Indeed I would hate that, and a narcissistic rant would be useless. But at the same time, there are some things that I seem to be doing very well (through no innate strengths of my own), and my goal here is to share those things with other people so that they can do them too.
For whatever my own assertion is worth, I really am just a guy, will always be, and will also continue to defend this fact. Right now I seem to have some unique insights and techniques, but that’s going to change and then I’ll just be one among many people. A bunch of really fantastic people, but one among many nonetheless (and it will be awesome).
A playful metaphor I’ve been using here is that of a foot soldier who happened to come across a +5 sword of good while wandering through the mountains. I seem able to do some pretty cool stuff, but it would be a mistake to attribute that to anything inherent about me. And most importantly, we can make more of these swords. That’s what I’m trying to do.
As for the personal examples, my own life is one I happen to have a lot of data on.
You haven’t described anything unique or insightful. You just describe an effect of introspection, and of putting oneself in another’s shoes. I’m pretty sure the majority of LW’s population does these two things all the time.
Unfortunately I wasn’t very clear there—I was referring to the general ideas I’m using, the content of previous and future posts, rather than the particular topic of this post.
Since you don’t want to sound narcissistic, consider counting the number of times you use “I” “my” and “me” before posting. Also avoid the temptation to share your whole mental process and focus on conclusions and supporting evidence that moves beyond personal anecdote. Don’t defend yourself, defend your ideas.
The avoidance of ‘I’, ‘my’ and ‘me’ is good advice, and something I’ve kept an eye out for. In this post it looks like they mostly show up when actually describing personal anecdotes, so the way to cut down on them would be to remove or reduce the anecdotes.
As for sharing the mental process, that information exists as an instruction and guide to doing this kind of thing—it’s actually fairly central to the point of the post.
Regarding the defense of ideas rather than one’s personality, it might be nice if we existed in an idealized setting in which ideas were considered on a level completely separate from the speaker. But it’s not just ideas that we’re judging, and the speaker’s personality is relative information. For example, look at your first comment, regarding the narcissistic feel to the posts. What does it matter if I were narcissistic? I could be the biggest asshole on earth and still be right. But it is relevant—we don’t want some asshole running around and putting himself above everyone else.
The point is that your personal thoughts and experiences leading up to the useful ideas actually detract from your presentation of the ideas. If we think this in terms of signal-to-noise ratio, your idea is signal and your personal experience is noise.
For example, appeals courts spend the minimum time possible on the facts before setting out and applying the law. Facts required to give context to the legal discussion are the only facts mentioned.
In short, consider what you would write if you were totally prohibited from mentioning your personal experiences at all. Sticking as close to that as possible will improve your presentation.
Yes, I agree that can happen. But, per the the topic of this post, there are cases where personal thoughts and experiences are very relevant, namely when the topic under discussion is personal thought and experience. If one is attempting to get inside the head of another, information about the content of that head is quite topical. We would lose something if were to model every form of human expression off of the appeals courts.
I appreciate personal anecdote. Sometimes I think anecdotes are the most valuable parts of an essay. It all depends on the style and the preferences of the audience. I don’t criticize HPMOR on the grounds that it focuses too much on Harry and not enough on rationality concepts...
I have asked him to “move beyond” not “eliminate”. Personal anecdote obviously has its place; but it doesn’t dominate on lesswrong, nor should it. As for HPMOR: different form, different purpose. (Though I do occasionally yearn for a bit more conceptualizing there too, - but that’s just personal preference and not grounds for criticism) Frank genuinely seems to want—and need—to improve his posts: my comments are blunt but not unfair.
So to summarize your comment: You use personal examples because you have a lot of data on yourself, and you think you are an excellent example because you seem to be performing very well in some areas.
What are those areas? The examples in this post seem unrelated to any particular strengths of yours.
In this post I just used personal examples because I had them, and also because I’ve probably done this somewhat more than average.
The good performance I’m seeing is my larger reason for posting at all. This post is meant both to point out a generally useful phenomenon and to prepare for other material. The other material contains the primary causes of the benefits I’m seeing.
As for what those benefits are, they’re listed in more detail here.
Why do you think you need to prepare your readers for other material? What are you preparing them for? (Or are you preparing yourself?)
Also, could you give me a shorter summary of those benefits? The material you linked me to had four paragraphs of talking about how you interact with other people in a very general way before even attempting your point.
One of the most helpful tools I can think of for the upcoming strategy is to put one’s self into other people’s minds and experiences, and the posts on that strategy are partly built for doing that. I wanted to explain to people why that extra material is there (and that it’s not just a case of needless and unreflected-upon over-elaboration), and also to give an idea of how that material might best be used.
Those paragraphs primarily exist to give a sense of my personality and a suggestion for the best way to consider the benefits. It might be nice if we considered ideas separate from their speaker, but it’s often very relevant information. This comment talks more about this.
For a shorter summary of the benefits, you could check out this post, 4th paragraph, beginning with “If you haven’t read the first two posts”.